Kate Holohan [00:00:09]:
Don't believe every label you read that says this will cure your hair loss. It probably won't. Minoxidil is obviously an ingredient that is in quite a lot of different products, so it would depend on the strength. We kind of look around kind of two to 5% with minoxidil. It can be very effective, but it will only work for about 70% of people. So it does work, but it won't work for everyone. And unfortunately, you don't know that until you've used it for three to six months, whether you're going to see any results or not.

Kevin Rolston [00:01:07]:
Welcome to Hairpod, the podcast where you get to hear real people talk about their hair journeys. I'm your host, Kevin Ralston, and every episode I talk with a guest about all things hair loss. All of our guests so far have experienced hair loss and found a solution.

Kevin Rolston [00:01:21]:
That works for them.

Kevin Rolston [00:01:22]:
This week, we're doing something a little bit different. I got to interview somebody with a lot of knowledge about scalp and hair health who is on a mission to share her wisdom so that people with hair issues can get their hair health and confidence back on track. Our guest today is Kate Holohan, a uk based trichologist, hairstylist and co host of the Hair Therapy podcast. Kate works with clients to help them understand and treat their hair and scalp issues. She also educates hairstylists about the science of trichology so that they can support their own clients in finding the right kinds of solutions. If you're wondering what a trichologist is.

Kevin Rolston [00:02:00]:
And how they help people with hair.

Kevin Rolston [00:02:01]:
Loss, you're in the right place. She helped me understand a little bit more about her field and how she first learned what it was.

Kate Holohan [00:02:13]:
You're not the only one, Kevin, that is not aware of what a trichologist does, by any means. Yeah, unfortunately, we're a kind of a lesser known breed of people, but basically, I deal with hair and scalp issues. So I spent two and a half years with the Institute of Trichology in London in Harley street learning about hair loss, hair and scalp conditions, hair health, and all the science that goes behind that. And funnily enough, before 2019, even though I'd been hairdressing for 20 years and been in education for about 1518 years, I'd never heard of a trackologist either.

Kevin Rolston [00:02:57]:
Huh. Okay.

Kate Holohan [00:02:58]:
That's why I'm on this mission.

Kevin Rolston [00:03:00]:
And how do you find out what this is? How do you get an interest from being a hairdresser to wanting to learn more about the scalp? Was there something that you saw in your day to day, what drove you in this direction?

Kate Holohan [00:03:11]:
So, funnily enough, I do find that most hairdressers who take an interest in trichology because you can become a trekologist with no hairdressing background whatsoever, and people do. But I'm noticing that there is a trend now for people to be interested in this area. It's normally people that have been in the hair industry or had people in their chair. It's people that have been in the industry for a while, normally. So people that are experienced hairdressers.

Kevin Rolston [00:03:40]:
Right, okay. Well, I would imagine, you know, you had been a hairdresser for a very long time. How many years had you been doing dressing hair?

Kate Holohan [00:03:50]:
I'd been in hairdressing for about 20 years when I found out about the profession of trichology. And I actually went to a hair health evening, which was hosted by the Fellowship of British Hairdressing. Because where I'd been in education for kind of 15 years or so, any new technique that came out, I had to know it because I was teaching it.

Kevin Rolston [00:04:14]:
Right.

Kate Holohan [00:04:14]:
So for me to learn something that was really, really new was actually quite a challenge. So I'm not by any means saying that I know everything about hair. However, if there was a new Balayage technique or a new colour product or a new haircut, I would be kept up to date with that because it was my job. So for me to find something on a personal development level, when I saw this hair health evening being advertised by the Fellowship of british hairdressing, and it was actually being run by Robert Eaton, who is a trichologist as well. But he's also won British Hairdresser of the year, I think, at least twice. And he's an amazing hairdresser. Yeah, he's great. So I went along because I thought, you know what, hair health and things like hair loss, hair and scalp problems is probably the one area that I know the least about.

Kate Holohan [00:05:05]:
And so I went along and I had two hour session with them and they told us all about trichology, all about the different aspects of hair loss and hair health, and just being able to really help clients from a completely focused angle. And I was literally on the train on the way home, emailing the Institute of Trichology saying, sign me up, I need to know more about this.

Kevin Rolston [00:05:30]:
It piqued your interest.

Kate Holohan [00:05:32]:
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm a bit of a geek, really, when it comes to education.

Kevin Rolston [00:05:38]:
So you're a geek of the scalp, is what you are.

Kate Holohan [00:05:41]:
I am.

Kevin Rolston [00:05:45]:
Kate is so passionate about the subject of scalp and hair health that I just had to know a little bit more. While some people start trying to find solutions, as soon as they start losing their hair, others may feel like theres nothing they can do about it. Knowledgeable, compassionate experts like Kate can help people understand that there are options out there.

Kevin Rolston [00:06:09]:
As a hairdresser, do you notice what is a healthy scalp, what is not from your clients even before you took an interest in trichology?

Kate Holohan [00:06:17]:
I think to a certain extent, yes. And obviously clients would come and say, oh, you know, I've got issues here, or I've got psoriasis, or I've got a condition, which is great, but I didn't really have a huge understanding of what a lot of those problems really were, and I certainly couldn't have really given them deep advice on what to do. I kind of had to hope that whatever they were telling me they had was correctly diagnosed and that's what they had. And also that they had a kind of management program in place. So although I could recommend them cosmetic products from the different hair brands that told us in the salon, oh, this is for scalps or this is for hair loss. Obviously now I've got trichological products, so they're that much more effective, they're that much more targeted. So I did see it before. And again, I think recently, over the last few years, hair and scalp health has become a lot more of a focus.

Kate Holohan [00:07:25]:
And I think that's amazing because I feel like there was always this kind of belief held almost by a lot of my clients. Well, I've got psoriasis, I just have to live with it. There's nothing I can do or I've tried ABC, it didn't work. So this is just my life now.

Kevin Rolston [00:07:41]:
How much does scalp health contribute to hair loss?

Kate Holohan [00:07:45]:
I think there's a lot of different aspects to that because although a lot of scalp condition affect at all any scalp condition, if it escalates to the point where the scaling on the scalp is blocking the hair follicles and making it difficult for hair to grow, then you've got an issue. You want to keep your scalp as best as possible so that it's providing an optimum environment for hair to grow. But you also have to look at it on the other aspect, that sometimes scalp conditions can be a lot more debilitating than hair loss. If someone has really, really bad psoriasis or even dandruff, if it's really visible and they're really self conscious of it, they may not go out, they may not socialize. They may be depressed, they may be anxiety, you know, depression, all those kind of things. Especially, I think we've seen that over the last few years since COVID the amount of pressure that people have been under and their mental health and wellbeing, you know, stress, if you're in that heightened state of anxiety or kind of fight or flight all the time, then of course, that's going to drain your system if you're not in what we call homeostasis. So if your whole body's not running on a good, healthy level, it will affect your hair growth just from that as well.

Kevin Rolston [00:09:11]:
So could your mental disposition, whether you're stressed, depressed, can that affect you losing hair?

Kate Holohan [00:09:19]:
Yes and no. Obviously, I'm not saying, you know, I mean, everybody's stressed, right? So we'd all have no hair, wouldn't we? We'd all be walking around with. Literally. I would. Absolutely, I would. I have no hair loss. However, what you often find with things like stress for most triggers with hair loss or most things when someone gets certain hair loss conditions, it's never normally one thing. It's a compound of a lot of things that that person is having to deal with.

Kate Holohan [00:09:45]:
So it might be stress, it might be deficiencies, maybe it might be autoimmune, but stress is going to compound that and it is going to have an effect. So it's certainly not going to help when your body's already under pressure to try and make hair. And the problem with stresses is bi directional. So stress could be a trigger or a cause for hair loss, but hair loss is also a trigger and a cause for anxiety and stress and depression. So they almost kind of feed off each other.

Kevin Rolston [00:10:19]:
Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about other things that you could be doing best practices when it comes to scalp health, because I've heard possibly drinking more water, your skin is more hydrated, you're getting better sleep, you're eating healthier food. Does all that contribute to scalp health as well?

Kate Holohan [00:10:36]:
Yeah, definitely. And to be honest with you, Kevin, it's one of the things that I always recommend to people, because when I make recommendations for people, although everything you said is true, you kind of don't want to get someone come in and see me and maybe like, right. We need a complete 360 overall on your whole life. You need to change your bed, you need to change your diet, you need to change your exercise regime. Drinking water is a small, achievable, sustainable change that you can make.

Kevin Rolston [00:11:03]:
Okay. All right.

Kate Holohan [00:11:04]:
Another thing I like to recommend, silk or satin pillowcases.

Kevin Rolston [00:11:09]:
Why is that?

Kate Holohan [00:11:11]:
So it not only has less kind of tension and effect on your hair, but also on your face as well. So everybody wants to have smooth, youthful looking skin, right? And look as good as they can possibly get. So with a silk or satin pillowcase, because it's smoother, it can reduce the amount of friction that you might have on your hair and your skin during the night. No, it's not going to make your hair grow ten inches in two days. But all these small changes, apparently another one that can be quite good is eating. Dates.

Kevin Rolston [00:11:46]:
No, really?

Kevin Rolston [00:11:47]:
Dates?

Kate Holohan [00:11:48]:
Yeah. So apparently three dates a day. I mean, I wouldn't go crazy. Probably too many might affect you in other ways, so that might not be a good idea. But apparently three dates a day can contribute to hair loss. Again, quite easy and achievable in relation to some of the other things that you might feel that you need to try.

Kevin Rolston [00:12:13]:
Those of us who have been through hair loss or are going through it now, know that not all treatments are created equal. There are countless products, remedies and trends available to us, and it can be hard to know just which one is right for your unique situation. Trichologists help their clients learn what products to use to solve their particular issues and help them measure just how successful the treatment is. There are countless products, remedies and trends available to us, and it can be kind of hard to know which one's right for your unique situation. Trichologists help their clients learn what products to use to solve their particular issues and help them measure how successful the treatment is. They also work with people on how to use the products correctly, so they're not doing more harm than good.

Kate Holohan [00:13:02]:
I think I've noticed the increase in people using the scalp kind of scrub devices and also scalp scrubs themselves. So it is actually really important to effectively cleanse the hair and shampoo it. So ideally, we would recommend to shampoo the hair twice, which I don't think a lot of people know about that, really. So especially if you've got a lot of hair and it's very thick or curly, sometimes washing the hair twice in one session can be beneficial. Using a scalp kind of the scrub, I can't think what they're called, the tools. They can be really useful, but it needs to be gentle. So you do then get these people that go completely the other way and they think, right, okay, well, if my scalp is actually skin two and I need to exfoliate that, then I need to buy a really high strength scrub and I need to attack my scalp and they can end up, scrubbing it too hard, which could then cause breakage or other problems. So it's about considering that, I think, as well, to make sure that whatever products you're using, there are obviously better products, there are not so great products, but whatever you're using to just make sure that you're really taking the time to look at your hair care routine and making sure that it's actually effective for you.

Kate Holohan [00:14:28]:
And like you say, people will try anything. So it's very upsetting to me when I get a patient come in and they've got a whole carrier bag full of hundreds of pounds worth of stuff, so.

Kevin Rolston [00:14:39]:
Right.

Kate Holohan [00:14:39]:
You know, don't believe every label you read that says this will cure your hair loss. It probably won't.

Kevin Rolston [00:14:46]:
Can you tell me your thoughts on the minoxidils and some of those topical ointments that people are trying? Have you found some that are more effective than others and ones that maybe are not effective at all that people are wasting their money on?

Kate Holohan [00:14:59]:
Minoxidil is obviously a ingredient that is in quite a lot of different products, so it would depend on the strength. So we kind of look around kind of two to 5% with minoxidil, it can be very effective, but it will only work for about 70% of people.

Kevin Rolston [00:15:20]:
Oh, wow.

Kate Holohan [00:15:20]:
So it won't work for everyone? So it does work, but it won't work for everyone. And unfortunately, you don't know that until you've used it for three to six months. Whether you're going to see any results or not, there are tests that you can actually do where it will tell you whether you're genetically predisposed to likely for it to work.

Kevin Rolston [00:15:45]:
Wow.

Kate Holohan [00:15:46]:
But they're not really cheap either. They are available. So you might use it for six months and not see a result at all. You don't know until you use it how well you're going to respond to it. It can take a bit of adjustment sometimes. I do think it's a very valid treatment. However, I find that especially some medical professionals are very keen to just very quickly jump to drugs, you know?

Kevin Rolston [00:16:14]:
Yeah.

Kate Holohan [00:16:15]:
And I have a lot of patients that don't want that as an option.

Kevin Rolston [00:16:19]:
I think that there are a lot of people, as they're losing their hair and they have issues that they'll throw any amount of money at it. And then after a while, when you've tried so many different procedures and nothing has worked for you, you do feel like there are some people out here trying to take advantage of me, and you're trying to figure out who that is. And that's why for me, you know, going to hair club, I had somebody I knew was in my corner, and they were giving me good guidance. So how do you know, being in this industry, how do you find somebody that you know is a good trichologist or somebody that's going to give you good advice and is not just going to try to flee knowing that you're desperate to find your remedy?

Kate Holohan [00:16:56]:
For me, I give my patients all the options and I will speak to them about stuff and I will make sure that they know. So for a treatment like minoxidil is a huge commitment. So, like I say, some people will readily say they absolutely love it and they wouldn't have the hair they had today had they not used it, but you have to use it for as long as you want hair.

Kevin Rolston [00:17:19]:
So you're talking about if you ever gave up using minoxidil, then you're going to start seeing immediate hair loss again. And so you've bought into, I am now a lifetime user of minoxidil.

Kate Holohan [00:17:30]:
Yeah, pretty much. Which is one of the reasons why I make sure people are really aware of all the different options and maybe try a few other things as well before that. I think if you're looking for a trichologist, especially in the US, it's not as tightly regulated profession. So it's definitely a good idea to look for someone who would be state registered or board certified for us. In the UK, obviously, I trained with the Institute of Trichologists, which is the longest standing kind of highest rated education provider. On their website, they have finder service. So you can put your postcode in and you can have a look and see someone near you that is actually qualified by them and recommended. Because we do see a lot of this as well, where we see people do training in maybe hair systems or wigs, or they do a couple of days online and they market themselves as a hair loss specialist, salon or expert.

Kate Holohan [00:18:34]:
And so you just do really need to make sure that you are in good hands. But it's very easy to find if you know who to look through to find people that are properly qualified.

Kevin Rolston [00:18:48]:
Now, being a trichologist, do you know anything about the hormonal effects on hair loss? And do you see it in the scalp, for instance? I've heard about, you know, sometimes you have a testosterone, it creates the DHT. The DHT goes in there and just kind of squeezes off the hair follicle. And that's when you start getting the hair loss as a trichologist do you see that? And is there any way that you can kind of offset some of those hormonal issues to slow your hair loss?

Kate Holohan [00:19:10]:
Yeah, absolutely. So you're talking really about genetic hair loss, which can affect men and women, and it is normally due to the DHT. So there are other treatments that have what's called a five alpha reductase inhibitor in the product. So I don't know if you've heard of finasteride or propecia.

Kevin Rolston [00:19:31]:
Yes, I used finasteride for about ten years myself. I found it to be very effective. I mean, it radically slowed my hair loss for an entire decade. So I would call it very successful for me.

Kate Holohan [00:19:42]:
But that's what that does. So it prevents the testosterone converting into DHT. So I have a similar product. It's not finasteride, but it's a scalp cream that you put on every night, and it has a five alpha reductase inhibitor in it, so it just stops that conversion happening. So you're absolutely right. Unfortunately, especially genetic hair loss, we can't cure it, but we can slow it right down and we can try and hold it off for as long as possible, which for some people is still a huge result.

Kevin Rolston [00:20:18]:
It is liberating to hear that there are options out there for anyone who's looking to improve the health of their hair and scalp, but it can be tricky to navigate them on your own. Working with a trusted professional can be very comforting for some people, but for others, reaching out for help is the hardest part. Many people wait until theyve exhausted their options and their wallets before reaching out to somebody like Kate who can help set them on the right path. I asked Kate what treatments she recommends people look into or attempt before reaching out to a trichologist.

Kate Holohan [00:20:56]:
I wouldn't try anything, Kevin, the two senior trichologist. Personally, I would want to be the first. Port of corn. Yes. Just think of us. You don't even need to have a real, real issue to come and see a trachologist. You can come and just have what we would call in the UK a kind of an mot, a hair and scalp mother. So if you had any kind of issues, or even if you were just curious about, you know, your hair and scalp health and condition, there are tests that we can do to even check hair condition, look for any disorders that might be there.

Kate Holohan [00:21:32]:
We can microscopically look at your scalp to see how healthy it is. My real kind of big thing is prevention is better than cure. So for you, Kevin, if you'd have left your hair loss, the longer you'd have left it, the less hair you would have been able to retain. So just having a diagnosis and that initial consultation, I'm not saying sign up for years of treatment, but going to someone who can actually give you an accurate, because if you don't get that accurate diagnosis and consultation at the start, if you went to, say, a barber and they said, oh, it's just genetic thinning, it's fine. And you actually had, say, a scarring condition or something that's really serious and permanent. The longer you leave a condition before it's treated, the worse your prognosis is. So I think early detection and early help is key, and we might turn around and say to you, actually, you're doing great.

Kevin Rolston [00:22:28]:
Yeah, right. But it's good to know, my first five years that I was dealing with my hair loss, I was on my own, and I spent so much money on so many things. I'm one of those people that the minoxidil doesn't work for. I'm that, you know, that percentage, and I did it for a year. I wasted a ton of money in a year on a product that did not work for me. And so knowing that, step one, if your thing is, in fact, if you're listening right now, trichologist is something you need to have a number for. If you don't already have a trichologist, that's valuable information.

Kate Holohan [00:23:02]:
That would really be my dream, to be honest, for everyone to just come and give us a little visit every now and then and just make sure, because like you say, if you don't have the right advice and help you, there's no support there. If you go to the Internet, you can find someone who will take that money.

Kevin Rolston [00:23:20]:
Yeah, well, man, I'm telling you, the hair loss field, so many people take your money, man. It's crazy.

Kate Holohan [00:23:27]:
And I think that's worse as well.

Kevin Rolston [00:23:30]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah.

Kate Holohan [00:23:32]:
The more you try, the more hopeless you feel. And even if you went to a trichologist and they said, look, it's genetic, hair thinning, we can't cure it, these are your options. Maybe we tested you and found that minoxidil wouldn't have worked for you. You wouldn't have had that whole year of kind of despondency and deflatedness, really. And the money, then, it's just nice. Or you could have gone back and after three months, they could have measured whether you had any success or not accurately, and gone. Do you know what we're not seeing what we would like to see here. Let's maybe look at something else that's so valuable.

Kevin Rolston [00:24:09]:
Kate, there are some people that do have hesitations about this. They drag their feet. They're worried about being embarrassed. Going to a trichologist. How tough is it? Can you say anything that might comfort them, that would get them in the door to a person they need to see today about their hair loss?

Kate Holohan [00:24:27]:
Yeah. I personally feel that I'm really quite approachable. My salon, my clinic is very, very discreet. I have access to my clinic 24 hours a day. So if someone wanted to come at 08:00 p.m. On a Friday when there was no one else around, no one would even know. I also, myself, have a podcast, the hair therapy podcast, where I have lots and lots of real life stories. So even if someone wanted to just get that kind of reassurance of the fact that they're not alone and there might be something to do, they could even start just by listening to a podcast in the car on their own.

Kate Holohan [00:25:04]:
I'm not forcing people to come and visit me, but I do just think we in this profession because we want to help people. We've seen everything before. We're never going to judge you. Your scalp could be, for you, the most horrific thing you've ever seen in your life. Trust me, I've probably seen worse. So we don't judge. We just want to help you.

Kevin Rolston [00:25:26]:
Yeah. Kate, you are a wealth of information. I appreciate you taking some time to share that information with our audience today.

Kate Holohan [00:25:34]:
It's been a pleasure. It's been lovely to talk to you.

Kevin Rolston [00:25:37]:
Absolutely. And you too. Take care and enjoy yourself.

Kate Holohan [00:25:40]:
Thank you.

Kevin Rolston [00:25:45]:
It was great speaking to Kate about her work. Her approach is scientific in nature, but she never loses her empathy for what people are going through. And because she's an educator, she's also helping the hairdressers she works with to learn to do the same. Her podcast and guest appearances like this one also help spread the word that there are so many small things we can do as individuals to help our hair health, to staying hydrated, to managing our stress. If you're kind of feeling like we barely scratched the surface, look, I'm right there with you.

Kevin Rolston [00:26:14]:
And if you'd like to learn more.

Kevin Rolston [00:26:15]:
About Kate and her podcast, make sure to check out the resources section of our show notes for a link to her show, hair therapy. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hairpod. Check us out at Hair Club on Instagram or search Hairpod on Facebook to continue the conversation. And if you know somebody who could benefit from hearing this episode, wed really love it if youd share it with them. And if youre enjoying the show, consider leaving us a rating and review on your favorite podcast app. We also have a website. Check it out by going to podcast dot hairclub.com. Were here to build people up and share real stories so people experiencing hair loss feel a little bit less alone.

Kevin Rolston [00:26:54]:
And when you share, review, and subscribe, it helps us do just that. So thank you.

Kevin Rolston [00:27:00]:
Until next time.